Talk:Alluka Zoldyck/Archive 2
This is a wiki I agree with Darkchylde and many others not only that Alluka is a boy, but that we should refer to him as a male as well. It is not about how he might feel ''about it, he is so young he probably has no clue as to what is sexuality, for us it is important to state what his gender really ''is. The purpose of a wiki is to give accurate information, regardless of howthe feelings of a character. Should we say that Ikalgo is a squid and not an octopus just because he feels like it? And please, cut it out with the transphobic c**p! We are supporting the theory that Alluka is biologically male despite his acting like a girl. No one in their right mind could consider it transphobic. Martialmaniac (talk) 20:55, February 26, 2015 (UTC) Since you asked me I will post a short reply here. Which is the following: nothing needs to be changed on the alluka page until further more conclusive and detailed information regarding Alluka is revealed by Togashi, whether that be in an interview (which he rarely gives), in a databook (which rarely comes out) or in new chapters (which rarely get released). Until such a time the page will remain locked and she will be referred to as him, since that is what the databook and thereby Togashi does. Also sexuality is a very fluid thing, generally people who aren't heterosexual don't get settled on a particularly gender and sexual label/identity until they reach maturity and their hormones start to call down, some regretfully never settle on a particularly gender or sexual label. I took me until I was 19 to be fully comfortable with being a (heavily perverted) male bisexual. OnePieceNation (talk) 18:00, March 1, 2015 (UTC) @OnePieceNation, I am also bisexual, and I think it is important to note that sexuality is different from gender identity. I am bisexual, and went through a painful and confusing process reaching that label, but I am not trans. Hormones generally have very little to do with gender identity, and children are much more aware of gender than romantic/sexual feelings. It is important for us not to confuse our experiences with those of trans people, especially because trans people have it the worst in terms treatment/awareness of LGBT+ identities. I also believe that there is sufficient evidence in the manga to label Alluka as a girl, but I have said this elsewhere. I mainly wanted to address your comment on identity. Blumenblatt (talk) 19:20, March 21, 2015 (UTC) Gender ::: Because of the other people supporting, I also think it's really important to note that there are fans who are touched by these elements in Togashi's work. I know people complain about him "mindfucking us" or w/e, but there's a long history of people around the world (and in Japan!) who do not fit the simple label of "your gender is determined by your body parts - option one or two, no you don't pick"! I think that Togashi intentionally recognizes that the whole world doesn't neatly fit into this boxes. Trying to force the issue of Alluka's gender based on her parents' bigotry or the world being normative is disrespectful of the fact that Togashi doesn't give a fuck about a normative world. And people who think it's too confusing cannot honestly deny the existence of trans people. Even if you don't know any, you must know that yes, they are real. I am in support of using gender neutral pronouns or (even better) changing to she/her/hers. Blumenblatt (talk) 19:08, February 1, 2015 (UTC) ::: Why does Pitou get a netural term on their page due to their ambiguity, but Alluka (who refers to themself as "she") is blatantly marked as a "he"? The whole "boku" arguement seems to be good enough for Pitou's fans, but the FACT that Killua and ALLUKA HERSELF use "she/her" when referring to (Alluka) isn't enough evidence?? I vote that the wiki changes the pronouns to neutral 'they/them" if everyone can't agree, instead of "possibly" misgendering her outright.. Sadteshimas (talk) 06:37, January 29, 2015 (UTC) ::: Like a lot of other people here, I'd also like to protest the use of he/him/his pronouns for Alluka. In episode 146 of the 2011 anime, Alluka refers to Something using she/her/hers pronouns ("She's still hunched over crying. Apologize to her!"). Something and Alluka share an identity, so it is safe to say that Alluka is a girl. Moreover, when selecting to take the side of the rest of the Zoldyck family rather than Alluka and Killua, keep in mind that you're taking the side of a group of people that also refer to Alluka as an object, a thing, an "it" and so forth. It's highly inappropriate to refer to this character as a male. Despite what body parts with which she may have been born (for which there is no confirmation in neither the manga nor the anime), she clearly identifies as a female, and is identified by the only person to whom she is close as a female. This is more than enough to say that she is a girl and should be referred to as a girl throughout the article. It was deeply troubling for me to see that this page chose to identify Alluka as a boy. Please reverse this stance ASAP. Tsozsecond (talk) 20:52, January 9, 2015 (UTC) ::: It is ridiculously transphobic to say that Alluka MUST be male. Using abusive family members as your scapegoat to label her this way is dishonest. The guidebook may also be referring to how the family/the Hunter x Hunter world that loves to gossip about the Zoldyck family views her, but what's most important is how Alluka views herself. You can at least show Alluka proper respect (without even acknowledging her as a girl) by changing the language to gender neutral. I love how this "debate" consistently says "we're unsure," but puts a sure as day male label on Alluka. I look forward to the day when this wiki community decides that she is a human being deserving of respect. Blumenblatt (talk) 16:02, January 4, 2015 (UTC) ::: Alluka could be a female, proven when Killua calls her a girl near 06:50 of episode 140. Killua also said he specifically called over a female butler to come with him because Alluka is a girl. However, Illumi calls Alluka his 'younger brother'. I think Alluka is just genderless; genderless people exist, and you can consider Alluka any gender you want him/her to be (I personally prefer calling Alluka a female, since Killua does. Plus, her room was full of girly toys and colors, not to mention her long hair and adorableness XD). -Melodicia PM 7/30/14 ::: Guys - It's pretty obvious that Togashi is screwing with you all. ::: Alluka could be a boy. After a long time he/she has been locked up in that room that hair could easily grow taller. But theres still the way his/her hair was arranged, that certain arrangement is very particular of pointing that SHE is a girl. But Alluka's gender still hasn't been confirmed yet but yeah, More people agree that Alluka is a Girl. ''-KillerTom 'PM 11/28/14 @killer tom whether a majority believes something or not doesn't make that belief valid. OnePieceNation (talk) 13:20, November 28, 2014 (UTC) ::: Alluka is the same sort of literary character as Soul Eater's Crona - The story avoids confirmation or gives contradictory information regarding the character's gender to evoke confusion in readers, BOTH for the author's amusement. The former method works via special Japanese gender-neutral pronoun that does not exist in English (causing confusion and flame wars when translations are done). The latter method is what we have here; the text is intentionally contradicting itself in hopes of making your heads explode. ::: Not really. Togashi has a well demonstrated and obviously sincere interest in representing Trans characters in his work (refer to Level E); he as been steadily developing better and more sensitive portrayals for a long time. You don't put as much effort into developing a better understanding and increasingly more meaningful narratives as Togashi obviously has if you don't actually care about the subject. Alluka is trans. The parallels between Nanika and Alluka's transgenderism are obvious and poignant, particularly when Alluka dresses Killua down for telling Nanika not to come out anymore. Brynne.dovola (talk) 17:08, September 15, 2014 (UTC) ::: If you really want this article consistent and objective - Make a section about Alluka's gender being ambiguous, just like Crona's page, and remove all the gender-specific pronouns. (And, yes... You will get irritated after having to use "Alluka" in place of "he" or "she", for the 50th time.) JunWasHere (talk) 04:29, July 29, 2012 (UTC) I prefer Alluka's gender to be female... Her servants were all girls. I think her family thought that it would be easier to take care of her if the servants would be girls too... juvie03 06:48, November 10, 2011 : Who edited Alluka's page? It's a big mess. Please cooperate and let us clean up this page. Alluka is one of the most important characters in the manga now. :: I guess some dude who hates HxH messed with it. You may not believe it but there're quite a few HxH haters on the internet. I sorta want to edit this page too, love Alluka, but I'm afraid it's gonna be vandalized again. Moreover there's still a lot of confusion about Alluka's gender. : Alluka's gender is very ambiguous at the moment but the majority of hunterpedia readers think of her as a girl (according to the poll on the front page) so I referred to her as 'she' and 'her' in the article. Feel free to edit them into he/him/his if you like. -- Foreva. I'm going to edit Alluka back to being male; the guidebook specifically calls Alluka a "younger brother," while Illumi and Milluki both do the same. Killua is the only one who calls Alluka his sister, and I don't think we have the full picture about Alluka yet. -Mr. Toto 19:10, November 3, 2011 (UTC) : In my opinion, Alluka and Kalluto are both female because; : ILLUmi, mILLUki, kILLUa = (they all have "illu") : ALLUka, kALLUto = ( they all have "allu", maybe they are both female because they both look like girl and instead of "illu" they have "allu" in their names.) :: Hello? Japanese kana doesn't work that way. Milluki & Killua would be "Mi-ru-ki", "Ki-ru-a". -sp :: There's no way to confirm their genders at the moment. Let's just go with them being male until it's proven otherwise. ::: Togashi's Note: ''Illumi and Milluki refer to Alluka as their brother, Killua refers to Alluka as his sister. It's not mindfucking you. -'' Manga Volume 28, Chapter 323 ::: With this note, it means the Zodycks are the ones confusing us, not Togashi himself. But if you look closely at Alluka's actions on the same manga cahpter, Alluka seems more like a ''girl to me. Itc-chongky 11:38, November 4, 2011 (UTC) Itc-chongky :::: Zodycks are creations from Togashi's mind, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. That "note" was from the translators. -sp : Yeah, I think Aruka is a girl too. But there're more sources referring to her as male than there are for her being female so for the time being using male-specific pronouns for her is reasonable. : That's a very good observation you had, Juvie03. Props to you ^^. I never noticed that all of Alluka's attendants were female. Now, if we go back to vol 5 and read the Zoldyck Family Arc we'll see that it seems the people who took care of Killua when he was a little kid are male. This may tell us something about Alluka's gender. Foreva 12:46, November 10, 2011 (UTC) : Before anyone says that 324 confirms Alluka's gender, it doesn't. Killua says that Alluka is a "girl," using scare quotes. That means that Alluka isn't a girl in the physical sense. Personality, perhaps. Mr. Toto' '''17:32, November 12, 2011 (UTC) : I think Alluka is a hermaphrodite. : If Alluka were born a girl, why would the two older brothers, who don't care for him, call him brother? I'm guessing Alluka identifies with being female and Killua respects that, that's all. -sp : Just Check Chapter 330 Page 12 of the Manga :) : Point made. I think Silva has the eyes to know what kind of genitals his children possess, so Alluka should be biologically male. Nobody other than Killua, on the other hand, has really gotten to know Alluka, so we can conjecture Alluka being female in personality at least. TriNiSette (talk) 04:53, July 29, 2012 (UTC) : Killua refers to Alluka as "she" while all the other Zoldyck, Silva included, as "it" viewing Alluka more like a tool than a person. Personally I think that Alluka is a girl but until now it's impossible to be sure of his\her gender and write "female" or "male" on the page would be a speculation, so it's more correct to write "unknown". Bogota X 18:29, February 20, 2013 (UTC) : I just always assumed Alluka was male and the "it" is female. : 06:35, May 16, 2013 (UTC) : There seems to be massive confusion on this site on the difference between gender and sex. Sex is male or female and is what a person biologically is. Gender is man or woman and the social lifestyle a person chooses. It isn't too much of a stretch to assume that Alluka has the gender identity of a girl. If we use gender Alluka would be "girl" and referred to with "she" in the article. If we use sex , it would be unkown as it is implied that Alluka is a transgendered character and would still be reffered to using "she". Pronouns used must coincide with a persons gender identity.Trenton Burton (talk) 12:20, July 8, 2013 (UTC) : Sooo, it seems pretty obvious to me that Alluka's sex is a male but she identifies as a female. Killua is the closest to Alluka, and he refers to her as his sister, while the rest of the family (who couldn't care less about Alluka's feelings and have hardly ever talked to her anyway) still refer to her as a male. I think we should go with Killua on this one; and refering to her as "him" on this page seems a little...insensitive? Andsunnydays (talk) 20:11, September 4, 2013 (UTC) : I wonder how many siscons out there will die when the author makes a confirmation that Alluka is male.First comes rock (talk) 15:38, September 19, 2013 (UTC) : Discussion of this issue seems to have died down, but it is very important that we resolve the issue of Alluka's pronouns on this page. Alluka clearly presents and identifies as a girl. Killua consistantly refers to Alluka as a girl, even specifically bringing along female butlers to help care for her in chapter 324. There is no good reason for this page to continue referring to Alluka as male. Please consider changing Alluka's pronouns to "she/her" or opening up the page to allow them to be changed. Bitterkiwi (talk) 01:36, February 11, 2014 (UTC) : She is a girl. Kikyo refers to her as "she" several times. So does Silva. : The inconsistancy of the pronouns in this article is causing lots of confusion for newer fans and people who are just getting to the election arc. For all the reasons outlined above please consider changing the pronouns used in this article back to she/her or unlocking the page so that it may be done. Bitterkiwi (talk) 20:18, June 18, 2014 (UTC) : As of episode 140, Alluka has been explicitly referred to as a girl. Killua specifically says "Alluka is a girl". This should be all the "evidence" you need on this matter, please allow the page to be changed as it is actively harming the communities understanding and causing confusion for newer fans. Alluka is a girl and the page must be changed to reflect this. Bitterkiwi (talk) 02:23, August 1, 2014 (UTC) : Unlock the page and change the pronouns. You have to be intentionally ignorant to make any irrelevant arguments at this point, there is no excuse. They're a girl. Done. Hatmoose (talk) 01:27, September 2, 2014 (UTC) ---- What should be used for Alluka's article? Alluka is already referred as "she" in the article, but I personally believe that Alluka is a "he". In the guidebook, Alluka is said to be a ''younger brother. I have read from somewhere that someone used a wikia (most likely Hunterpedia) as reference for Alluka's gender but did not trust the evidence because "it's based an arbitrary criteria from the fanbase". Besides, it wouldn't be too surprising since Togashi has a knack of creating female-looking male characters *cough*Kurapika*cough*. Anyway, this is just my opinion. We have more references that Alluka is considered male more than female (only Killua calls him that). —' Darkchylde' (talk • ) 13:00,3/1/2014 You define someone's gender by her or his mind gender. For most people, it matches, but for some, it's different. So what is important is not what Alluka has between her legs, it's what she thinks she is. We don't know the biologic gender of Alluka, but we know what she thinks she is. And without any doubts, she feels a girl. First, she uses "atashi" which is a pure female pronoun. Then, the only one in her family who loves her, Killua, talks of his sister. There's even a chapter called "brother and sister". I find it quite rude that the wikia article is written with masculine pronouns. At least, change every "he" with Alluka. But frankly, it should simply be written with feminine words. No Alluka isn't a boy, and it has been said clearly in the manga. Uriel on the sun (talk) 21:03, March 3, 2014 (UTC) Alluka refers to herself as a girl, and the person who knows her best also says she's a girl. Even if her biological sex were male (which is impossible to prove) her gender is female Are You Serious (talk) 21:36, April 22, 2014 (UTC) Killua said that Alluka is a girl, all the stuff about biological sex is fanfiction. Pokkle (talk) 08:19, May 25, 2014 (UTC) I know that I will just be repeating what has already been said, but the pronouns in this article really need to be altered. Since Alluka refers to herself with feminine terms, the article should be altered to refer to her with feminine pronouns. It really should be that simple. But it would also be reasonable to replace masculine pronouns with gender neutral ones like 'they' or 'ze.' Although it seems obvious to me that Alluka is a girl, the world can be much more complicated--for example, in Wandering Son, Shuichi Nitori, who expresses multiple times over the comic and anime their wish to be a girl, still refers to themself with the word boku, which is generally reserved for boys, especially young ones, to use. Thus one might argue, since Alluka has not clearly stated, I am a girl!, that the gender is still ambiguous. But if someone were to go that far, to say that it is ambiguous, and then just go with what sex they were probably assigned at birth to generate pronouns? That is unbelievably presumptuous. Thus, at the very least, please remove masculine pronouns and replace them with gender-neutral ones. I would be happy to do the job, if I could figure out how to/be granted access to the page (I'm afraid I am very new and inexperienced with wikias). (This continuation is arguing for use of feminine pronouns, but the removal of masculine pronouns is more important than that, so if you do not think reading this will help that cause, you may stop here.) Please note that though I have watched the 1999 anime quite a few times and have read the manga, I do not have perfect knowledge of the series. Earlier I argued that though Alluka refers to herself with feminine pronouns, her gender might be more complicated than that. This is true. However, this applies to the majority of characters in the series. The only character I can recall stating their gender outright is Senritsu/Melody. I do not know Japanese, so there may have been more that were lost in translation, or similar declarations of gender in English tranlations that I couldn't trust. I am not suggesting a complete overhaul of gender-specific pronouns or terms (that is a major change that I do not think will happen in our society for quite some time) but rather equality in how the characters are treated. If we are allowed to assume Leorio is male based on how he and the people around him refer to him, we should be able to do the same with Alluka. Alluka refers to herself with 'atashi' which is primarily used by girls. It is sometimes used by boys, but much less so than even 'watashi' which was introduced to my Japanese class as feminine. Killua, the one person most close to Alluka and in tune with what she wants, calls her a girl and fiercely defends this in front of others. The rest of her family varies on how they refer to her, but the two main people I believe refer to Alluka as male are Milluki and Illumi (I may be inaccurate in this). Illumi is pretty clearly shown to be basically heartless, expressing no compassion and manipulating, torturing and killing people quickly and naturally. The main conflict in transporting Alluka to heal Gon was the fear of Illumi killing Alluka or using her for his own ends. Since he has zero regard for her well being, it is unsurprising he would ignore her wants and needs in preference to doing what he wants. Milluki has been shown to be self centered and immature. He does not seem to sympathize or empathize with anyone. It is unsurprising that he might ignore someone's gender in order preserve his own worldview. Thus it seems reasonable to assume Alluka is a girl, since she herself and the one with the most concern for her as a person refer to her as female and those who don't do so treat her like an object or force to control. Thank you very much for your time, and sorry if I have rambled. I very much hope this issue will be resolved respectfully. Lycor (talk) 16:57, June 26, 2014 (UTC)Lycor I would just like to say that the first paragraph in the 'Gender Confusion' section outlines all the reasons why the character identifies as a girl, while the second little blurb paragraph goes on to basically say 'but fuck that we're gonna call her a boy anyway'. Why? If it's the author's intent for the character to be trans, why dance around it? This seems extremely transphobic and regressive, and extremely counterproductive for being informative, which last I checked, is the whole purpose of a wiki or wikia. Blademaster Banryu (talk) 15:53, June 28, 2014 (UTC) What is the point of continuing to keep this article blocked? Literally no one is against changing the pronouns, isn't wikia supposed to contain objective information? And if you're so bent on the fact that her gender hasn't been established outright you could just use the neutral pronouns instead, which DO exist in english. Shoopuf (talk) 03:05, July 15, 2014 (UTC) I changed Alluka's pronouns on her wiki for female, because seeing the paragraph in the gender confusion practically saying that the editor will deny the fact that Alluka is a girl for the sake of what is officially between her legs really bothered me and in the brief mentioning of her in the latest episode, I'm pretty sure she will appear as a girl in the anime anyway. If anyone wants to give me a reason to change her pronouns back to male on her article, you better have a pretty good non-transphobic argument ready. Allukazoldyck (talk) 22:07, July 16, 2014 (UTC) To me Alluka is female, she presents as female. After watching episode 138, I am even more sure of this. However for the sake of this article and the fact that we have had no official comfirmation on this topic perhaps the gender neutral their/they/them would be acceptable to all parties? Chordsofsteel (talk) 00:56, July 17, 2014 (UTC) As of episode 138, Killua has specifically referred to Alluka as his little sister in the original japanese. There is no room for error in the translation here, he explicitly uses "imōto" in reference to her. This, in addition to the mountain of reasons above, should be more than enough to make clear that the pronouns on this page should be changed to she/her. The inconsistancy of this article is in part responsible for a lot of the confusion of newer fans and 2011 anime-only fans. Alluka is a girl and the language of this article should reflect that. Please, please allow the page to be unlocked or changed. Bitterkiwi (talk) 01:40, July 18, 2014 (UTC) Killua is the only one who refers to Alluka as a girl, and when he did he called Alluka a "Girl" and''' '''Gotoh seemed troubled after he said that, while every other family member refers to Alluka as a boy. The Jump report refers to Alluka as fourth son, the official guidebook says that the Zoldyck have 5 sons. MrGenial11 (talk) 14:22, August 18, 2014 (UTC) : You know nothing of transgenderism, do you? The basic thing with a transgender is to use pronouns that are accorded with the psyche, not the biologic. As you say it yourself, she feels a girl. Than it's a simple question of respect to talk about her with feminine pronouns. :) : Uriel on the sun (talk) 05:26, July 23, 2014 (UTC) : ^I agree. While Alluka might be (most likely in my opinion) a boy physically she is in my mind definitely a girl mentally. I think she should be referred to as a "her" because that's her gender and what she identifies with. This shows in the way Killua consequently refers to her as "sister" and since he clearly is the only one of the Zoldycks who genuinly care about her, his word trumps Illumi and Miluki's. Hisoka~you~assbutt (talk) 16:39, August 13, 2014 (UTC) __ Alluka is a girl. There is no such thing as being biologically a boy. Biology is way more complicated than your middle school understanding of chromosomes. How someone identifies, is who they are. She is a girl biologically because her biology is part of her. She is a girl because that's what she is. News outlets, professionals, and decent human beings would recognize her as a girl. The only people who don't dehumanize her would recognize her as a girl. You can try to skip away with your weak transmisogyny, but I see ver plainly a fundamental lack of understanding or care in an attempt to hold onto bigoted arguments. Please change her gender. Trans people exist. They deserve for the few characters they get as representation to at least be refered to properly. You do yourselves and the world a disservice by remaining ignorant about this. Blumenblatt (talk) 01:17, August 17, 2014 (UTC)